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Monday, August 11, 2008

Answering petestop's questions about the Bar Council's 'Forum' protest





This is in response to one of my blog readers comment and questions regarding whether what happened to a Chinese lady who was married to a Muslim for 30 years and didn't know that her husband had also married an Iranian lady found out that she wasn't recognized by the Shariah courts as the lawful widow when she tried to claim her dead husband's estate is Islamic Justice?

I told him 'No!' ; that it is not!

I for one believe that the lady should pursue her case through the justice system and not through a useless and ineffective forum!

I am also responding to petestop's reference to the way the GPMS folks misbehaved during the protests.

Watch the videos above and read what I have to say about the matter below:
Blogger petestop said...

It is weird that Muslims perceived this forum as a injustice done to them.

How can it be an injustice when that one religion, protected under the constitution, who gets 95% of the whole country's budget to build their places of worship, who unilaterally declared the country as a its own religion country... and can practically get away with violent disruption to peaceful forums... and person wearing GPMS T-shirt and claiming he is from UMNO, calling "You India, Cina... go to hell".

Please say that it is injustice to the Chinese wife of 30 years to a man who secretly married an Iranian lady, and when he died, later found that she have lost all her properties as she is not recognised as that man's wife under Syariah law.

Is this Islamic Justice ??

Monday, 11 August, 2008

Blogger MAHAGURU58 said...

pete,

first and foremost, there were some agent provocateurs in the protest and the one that I saw misbehaving worst was the GPMS Vice President Jais Abdul Karim and some unidentified persons who were shouting racist slurs against those leaving the forum!

I myself took offense at a PAS Youth Head named Rizuan who was very rude and arrogant in his manners towards even myself when I challenged his abrasive manner in asking the protesters to sit down on the hot tarmac?

Maybe the fellow didn't know me or who I am so he thought he could get away with being 'kurang ajar' but I confronted him and made sure that he apologized to me there and then.

So, yes the protest was hot and tempers flared!

I am not happy that there were racists amongst the protesters who used the moment to spew forth such curses but it was pure pandemonium and even the FRU could,'t control the crowd!

What I was surprised is that several Special Branch officers to whom I asked for help in bringing Jais down from the steps where he was practically raging at the top of his lungs just let him rant and rave and stopped us from going near Jais and calm him down or what?

It was like they purposely let Jais blow off steam as he pleased?

That perplexes me even to this moment?

Another thing I'd like to say is that I don't think the Bar Council can solve any outstanding problems involving dead or divorced converts to Islam on their own?

Are the Bar Council capable of effecting change to those persons lives by holding such forums or wouldn't justice be better served by going through the legal system and engage with the proper authorities representing the Government such as JAKIM?

What is the point of raising such sensitive issues through an open forum like what they did and disregarded calls from even the PM himself to call the forum off?

There were many unanswered questions and what seemed to me like a purposeful allowance of certain instigators like the GPMS VP to turn the protest into such an uncontrollable turn of events!

To answer your question, as to whether that was Islamic Justice, the answer is NO!

The proper way to go seek justice is to go through the Shariah Courts and plead their cases before the Hakim's!

As the deceased or divorced persons were and are Muslims, the Non Muslim survivors have every right to seek justice through the Shariah courts and when found to be in the right, they will surely be reinstated whatever properties or trusts that they are entitled to?

Believe me that we can pursue this through the Shariah courts and get the truth be told there.

Not through useless and ineffective forums!

That's what I think!

Monday, 11 August, 2008

30 comments:

Anonymous said...

Mahaguru, I wonder which court you are saying about?

Public court dare not to touch ISlamic matters and in shariah court this is right?

Shazlan said...

Salam,
Bro,

The Bar Council is politically wrong in organizing the event. While they do have the freedom to do so, it was rather irresponsible to proceed with the event. At least, they should have co-organize this with a religous council. Yes, we have reached independant for more than 50 years already, but the issue of non-Muslim questioning (and actually discussing) on the conversion issue is rather new. The masses aren't prepared to discuss this openly. I've read elsewhere and I agreed that the Bar Council should have educated the masses first. Such a bold yet stupid move by a lawyer - everything has to come at a steady and stable pace...

Anyhow, on another note, it seemed that the protesters reacted rathere disgracefully and shamefully. Never had I came across a hadeeth showing that Rasulullah humiliated his opponents - even if they have thrown rocks, poured with with camel-dung, attempted murder, etc. Shouldn't the approach be bil-hikmah? These lawyers are educated and hence, should be dealt civilly. Sometimes I do wonder, who humiliated our religion worse? The non-muslims or us, ourselves?

Double damn...

Wassalam

TeohZY said...

I agree with you, Mahaguru58. This forum achieved nothing other than causing conflict among Muslims and non-Muslims. I am a buddhist, and I certainly would not like to see people from other religions discuss and talk smack on my religion. The same goes for other religion. I am sure Christians would not appreciate if a forum is held to discuss whether Mary is a virgin or not?

Religion is a serious matter, because it involves your innermost belief and faith. That is why we should always think carefully before joining or converting to a religion. We should first find out about the laws and teachings of a religion before converting. No use regretting after we have joined, then blame it on that religion.

If one feel that he/she cannot follow the laws and teachings of a religion, then don't convert. As easy as that. Making a big fuss, insulting that religion, hold an open forum to talk about it, it is just going to lead to strife and conflict. This time, the bar council really screwed up.

Nostradamus said...

Permatang Pauh Voters decide for Nation? - Appeal by Nostradamus.
Pengundi Permatang Pauh tentukan untuk Negara? – Rayuan oleh Nostradamus.

1. Voters of Permatang Pauh will vote come 26 August 2008. Who to vote for and What to vote for?
Pengundi-pengundi Permatang Pauh akan undi menjelang 26 Ogos 2008. Mengundi Siapa and mengundi untuk Apa?

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50 Soalan untuk menguji Suara Hati anda di www.patek1472.wordpress.com

SuNi's Dessert Kitchen said...

I fully agree that the Syariah court should be used for cases related to Islam. Not many of the public actually knows or understand the actual objectives of the forum organised by the Bar Council. This has created unwanted tension. Religion should be about peace, tolerance, compassion and love for all beings. I am not a muslim but to me all religions have its own beauty and misusing religion to gain political grounds is wrong in whatever religion for that matter. I hope all Malaysians will realise that all religion offer a guide to its followers a way of life, a source of inspiration, a way to find peace within onself and with others.

Kinetic said...

Hi Mahaguru,

thanks for the fair opinion. However, i think the forum is a start and maybe the way is not that correct. But it should not a big deal as revelent party can approach them ( if they are not invited, the take a proactive step), taking part and come up a solution. Maybe, bar council overlook this. But if they did, but this can express in good manner, in good muslim manner. This will gain more respect and will not tarnish Islam. But, what we seen here is over-react, " babi, balik cina", weapon,violent, Jangan cabar Islam, we have limited patient". It looks immature to me. I do hope this is only of certain people,but not represent whole muslim in this country, as i am stil beleiving the goodie of Islam and i respected his religious.

MYblog said...

I dont know much about these cases but I hope they have exhausted all avenues prior to taking it to the forum.

On another thing, you have faith in the syariah courts, I may have faith in them but some non muslims dont have much exposure and may not be confident about syariah law or courts. This is something to consider.

The forum (I am still undecided whether it would have served its purpose better if it was a closed forum) itself was not meant to belittle Islam but is rather to seek remedies for non muslims (or so I believe) who may be stuck in between the civil and syariah situation. Here I would use my favorite term for them as these people are also "Stuck in the middle".

My frank opinion. I think emotions achieve nothing but rationale thinking and actions on the other hand may yeild very fruitful results, but trust must be there between the communities and society especialy amongst people that possess different religions

Remember the Lord in whatever name is supreme and one and only.

Shakesphere or I rather call him Sheikh Pir (just to create controversy) said, what is in a name, a rose called by any other name smells just as sweet.

MAHAGURU58 said...

Edi asked, " Mahaguru, I wonder which court you are saying about?

Public court dare not to touch Islamic matters and in Shariah court this is right?"

Well Edi, I am referring to the Shariah Courts of course.

Since these cases involve matters that relate to Islamic rulings and laws pertaining to the estates of deceased Muslims and cases where it concerns the survivors of the late Muslims, it is imperative that these cases are solved and decided through the same Shariah courts!

I am sure that if there is a will, there is definitely a way to solve the outstanding cases involving the Muslims and their Non Muslim relatives or families.

Do not dismiss away the Shariah courts for they are the only courts which we Muslims prefer and abide to its decisions when matters concerning our faith are concerned.

I can refer anyone of those who have issues with their dead Muslim husbands or fathers to my contacts in the Sharie Lawyers Association and also Peguam Pembela Islam.

All it takes is the willpower and sincerity in seeking true justice for everyone, regardless of creed or color?

Insya Allah Edi, we can seek justice for them through the Shariah Courts for Islam forbids injustice to be left unanswered or left unsettled by the justice system of this land.

MAHAGURU58 said...

Assalamualaikum shazlan,

I agree with your points that "the protesters reacted rather disgracefully and shamefully.

Never had I came across a hadeeth showing that Rasulullah humiliated his opponents - even if they have thrown rocks, poured with with camel-dung, attempted murder, etc.

Shouldn't the approach be bil-hikmah?

These lawyers are educated and hence, should be dealt with civilly.

Sometimes I do wonder, who humiliated our religion worse?

The non-Muslims or us, ourselves?"

Frankly speaking, I was both shocked and embarrassed myself to see the crude and vulgar mannerisms of those who were there to champion Islam?

All the racist insults and curses were being uttered by obviously enraged folks whom I don't have any idea as to who or where they were from but it was clear that members of the GPMS were the ones who were goading the forum participants and among the most vociferous ones in the protest!!!

I was also perplexed to see the Special Branch officers just allow the GPMS members run riot so to speak?

I regret to see our fellow Muslims be racists!

I'd rather not be with such uncouth folks in any future protests for it is just not my style to engage in racist taunts against Non Muslims!

That's just not right!

We can fight for Islam but not for Assabiyah!

Even then, we need to exercise control over our nafsul amarah which sadly I myself couldn't contain due to the arrogance of one PAS Youth leader!

My apologies to whomsoever felt distressed to see me lose my cool!

I hope that I will not have to be in such a similar situation, ever again?

I prefer to fight my battles in a more acceptable manner- through my blog and reasonable dialogues.

malayamuda said...

Deputy IGP was reported to have said they are investigating blogs which declared that Zulkifli Nordin was arrested under the ISA......have you been contacted by the police yet Mahaguru ?

The police seem to be more interested on bloggers,politicians, stealing syabu and robbing banks.......wonder who is in charge of catching the murderers and thieves ? Putera UMNO ?

MAHAGURU58 said...

Peace be with you Brother Teohzy!

If only we had more Malaysians like you, this nation will not see such screw ups taking place in the future!

May decency prevail in our land bro!

I have to admit that events that took place the other day at the protest didn't really reflect what Islam calls for?

Looks like those of us who went there to protest were victims of a hidden agenda of those who wanted to create a political backlash for certain quarters.

We need to check in depth as to who are the protest organizers and what is their agenda or interests before we take part in any future demos or protests?

MAHAGURU58 said...

suni, kinetic and myblog,

I agree with your points!

You folks have spoken from your hearts and Malaysians ought to accept and digest what you have all shared.

Thank you for your valuable insights!

May we find the answers to our nation's problems through rational and reasonable engagements with one another.

My prayers are for all of you to find the peace that we all seek and yearn for?

Ameen.

MAHAGURU58 said...

malayamuda,

Nope. You have a point there bro.

Agree with you on the second paragraph! :)

Snowflake said...

Assallamualaikum
Mahaguru, we can't be perfect in anything we do, can we? However, the reaction from our fellow muslims to disqualify the forum was really uncalled for. If could have been done in a more humble manner. Our religion has never taught us to be so rude, crude and so misbehaved. It was a total shame and we should instigate who the culprit was for bringing the shameful act.
However, I must say the Bar Council in their own expense should not have even thought for a second to brought up this forum. Period. We do not need religion matters to be brought up by those who do not know what Islam is all about. I am very very upset mahaguru with what had transpired on Saturday. May Allah bless all of us.
Wassallam
If I may extend this to Bro Teohzy, like mahaguru, I share the same opinion of you. Thanks Teohzy for you are a very understanding person and may your lord bless you too.
Rgds
Adik Snowflake

BareSheen said...

Dear Mahaguru,

Many of us non-Muslims are so flabbergasted over these "storm-troƶping". Some find it totally disgusting. Not because we have anything against Islam but actions speak louder than words.

We have no interest in what your holy book says. We are only interested in what Muslims'actions say.

And what do we see or hear?

We non-Muslims are often shouted down, screamed at, judged at, condemned to hell, condescended to. We are forever judged by the way we dress, the meat we eat, the pets we keep, ad nauseam.

Even if we want to be understanding towards Islam or even have the slightest thought of learning more about this religion, with hooliganism like this, we should we?

Secondly, this is not the first incident. There are countless other examples throughout, worldwide even. Fatwa issued to kill an author. Screaming mob baying for blood. Suicide bombing.

Why is it that when Islam is criticized, we have such extreme reactions from Muslims? It is so weird. Are Muslims so diffident about their religion?

Thirdly, whether open door, closed door, wrong timing, right timing of the seminar, aren't we over looking one fundamental factor - the right to voice one's opinion no matter how unpalatable it is to one's worldview, so long as it is done civilly - and that this right must be respected. If we are to pussy foot around offending someone's sensitivity, when are we ever going to "grow up" and take criticism (insult even) like a mature adult with temperance?

I do not mean to be rude or harsh here, Mahaguru. I have been reading your articles and I often find them enlightening, well reasoned and articulate. And I admire your speaking out against the rubbish and nonsense that BN is.

But this terrorists behaviour of supposed Muslims is so off putting. I am sorry, but Islam is and will never be for me, a religion of peace.

Peace to you.

Harimau-Menaip said...

Assalamualaikum Tuan Guru58;

Pertama, maaf kerana tidak memulakan panggilan nama Tuan dengan perkataan "Maha" kerana menurut ustazah saya, Maha adalah sesuai untuk Allah dan tidak pada makhluk. Walaubagaimanapun, sekiranya Tuan ada sebab yang kuat, InsyaAllah, saya akan memanggil Tuan sepertimana yang Tuan biasa.Tidak salah Tuan berkongsi ilmu yang Tuan ada.

Berbalik isu tadi, bagi saya, isu Agama Allah tidak boleh kita ambil mudah kerana hidup dan mati kita hanya kerana Allah. Tidaklah dicipta manusia dan Jin jika bukan untuk beribadat kepada Allah. Saya memuji Tuan kerana melarang pemprotes dari duduk kerana itu bukan cara seorang Pejuang Agama Allah.
Saya cuma khuatir kerana rata-rata yang hadir buta dan jahil apa itu perjuangan kerana terlalu dimomokkan dengan protes ala hippies. Bagi mereka, protes wajib dengan agresif dan maki hamun. Pada pandangan saya, ia tidak sepatutnya sebegitu memandangkan Islam itu Sejahtera dan kita tidak mahu Islam dipandang ganas. Saya percaya dan yakin, ramai yang "jauh hati" sekiranya ada kalangan keluarga mereka yang ingin masuk Islam kerana mereka tentunya berpendapat yang Islam akan menjauhkan hubungan kekeluargaan mereka.
Kita wajib menukar persepsi ini.

Saya kurang senang apabila melihat terlalu ramai "Imam" di bantahan Forum tersebut. Ini bukan cara Islam berjuang dan terbukti dalam sejarah yang perjuangan sebegini akan kecundang! Kita wajib membina dan bukan memusnahkan.Komuniti Islam tidak kira peringkat, wajar punta satu ketua/Imam. Tindakan GPMS hanya mencalarkan imej Islam sahaja.

Tuan; saya ada beberapa cadangan. Tuan sebagai "pioneer" dunia blog yang cenderung ke arah dakwah, apasalahnya sekiranya Tuan memulakan suatu yang berbentuk Resolusi atau logo atau pun Deklarasi bagi blogawan-blogawan Islam tidak kira mereka orang lama ataupun bukan. Blogawan2 ini akan memastikan lambang atau resolusi tersebut "tersemat" di pinggir atas blog mereka. Secara tidak langsung, kita sudah menunjukkan penyatuan.

Rakan-rakan bukan Islam juga usahlah kita pinggirkan atau lupakan, dan blogawan yang telah "menyemat" logo atau resolusi tersebut, perlulah menjaga penulisan mereka agar tidak menyinggung perasaan mana-mana orang bukan Islam kerana Islam tidak mengajar kita berbuat begitu. Saya juga faham bahawa Tuan menggalakkan blogger Muslim menyertai www.themuslimbloggersalliance.org (Tuanlah Presidennya) namun bukan semua yang bersedia untuk komited dengan themuslimbloggersalliance tersebut.Ia perlu bermula dengan "pemasaran" dan membina "persepsi".Terpulang pada Tuan kerana bagi saya, untuk menarik perpaduan dan penyatuan, kita perlu kreatif. Oleh sebab inilah saya menulis blog yang neutral (tapi Islam adalah prioriti) kerana dengan cara ini saya dapat menyuarakan isihati dan mendengar pandangan semua tanpa memikir anutan politik. Yang betul kita sokong, yang silap kita tegur.

Saya ada beberapa pandangan, tapi biar di lain kali. Akhir qalam, izinkan saya memaut blog Tuan ke blog murah saya.

ps: saya terbaca melalui kickdefella bahawa forum ini didalangi VVIP. Adakah benar? Bagi saya, kita perlu "telanjangkan" isu ini hingga kita dapat siapa petualangnya kerana saya percaya, jika tiada sokongan "seseorang", Majlis Peguam tiada jantan untuk menganjurkannya. Wallahualam.

tan, tanjong bungah said...

Hi everyone,

If your religion has been hijacked by those with political motives, then more people like you and Dr Mehrun Siraj should stand up to these people, those who claim to be true Muslims when in fact, their uncouth behaviour and intolerance only disgraces the religion! If I'm not mistaken, the religion is one which preaches peace and even fair treatment to non-believers.

The Bar Council is not totally at fault in organising this forum to find solutions of families affected by converts within the families. Maybe, they could engage more notable Muslims, like those of Dr Mehrun Siraj's stature and other Islamic scholars, and announce it to the public of such renown scholars taking part in the forum.

My stand is that those experts in the religion should engage people from other faiths to explain the tenets of the religion, to enlighten more of the populace about perceived fear of the religion.

The hooliganism displayed by those disrupting the forum does not do justice to what the religion preaches. Hence, those well-versed in the religion should stand up and be heard, and not let your religion be hijacked by such people with certain agendas!

Sans said...

where is the love? All I saw was hate by the demonstrators. Is this religion?
Thank god the Unit Amal helped to held back the crowd. I heard the speakers and what they said for the most part was not hateful except for a few. What this has done is that is has empowered the wrong people. Not those with religious knowledge but those full of bile and hate to continue to spew their hatred. They have found their niche. These people who are mentally bankrupt who must clinge to some sense of supremacy in something, whether in race or religion. If we pray 5 times a day and read religous text, we will be filled by love and beauty. Our capacity in the negative emotions will diminish. Is this what we saw? are these religious people? Prayer is a humbling experience and through it we see god's grace everywhere and in everything. So what where the demonstrators seeing?

Why do people feel they are under siege? Under Siege from what? I believe the title of the forum could have been better but Mahaguru, can I ask what you thought the forum was going to be about and was this what it was actually about?

People always want to die for their country, religion, race etc.

But really the question, are they willing to kill for them?

Dying for something is a passive, you wait to be killed, but the truth is when someone ask you to die for something, he is actually asking you to kill for it.

So whenever people say they are willing to die for something (even you Mahaguru58) is sound glorious, patriotic, beautiful but it is only one side of the coin and I cringe whenever I hear people say that that they want to die for something.

If people say they are willing to die for something, they should also consider the other side, are they willing to kill for it?

A Concerned Malaysian said...

I am a Chinese and I do not know much about Islam. However, I do not see these protesters portrait Islam as " a way of life or a beautiful religion" as many muslims have claimed. My sincere apology if I have offended anyone with it.

I always wanted to ask this question but dare not due to its sensitivity. Do muslims in Malaysia have film thin faith in Islam itself?

I have a lot of Malay friends and we do not have any problem going to Pizza-Hut or McDonald to dine. However, I have refrained myself to topics involving Islam. My perception of Malay muslim is that they could be rather good people but when Islam is involved, they can't control their emotion. I could be wrong though.

petestop said...

Where is the show of compassion and empathy by the so-called champion of Islam mob ??

All we see is Hate...Hate...Hate...

Race and religion is so easily manipulated by politician, that the "mob" fails to see what they are doing to fellow humans, and very easily lose their humanity.

Are non-Muslim sub-human to you ?

Even better today on the Star,
Wanita UMNO called for a "jihad" in the Permatang Pauh by-election.

Is "jihad" such a cheap word that can be thrown here and there by politicians ?

Perhaps our knowledgable Mahaguru here can give a dissertation on what it means by "jihad" ?

It does not matter that majority of the panel are Muslims and that the state religious council (Jawi and Ikim) was also invited, but pulled out, no doubt due to political pressure.

But as mentioned by some, at least there are amongst those panel, like IIU law lecture Dr Mehrun Siraj, true Muslims who defended the forum against the GPMS fella by saying "Open discussion is the way to discuss issues between Muslims and non-Muslims" and ended with "Don't insult Islam".

We would like to believe that the majority of Muslims are like Dr Mehrun Siraj, who shows compassion and empathy under pressure.

Instead of the ugly head of "mob rule".

Unfortunately PKR and PAS, you won't get my vote in next election.
It is doubtful that you will ever reform and constantly fall into UMNO trap, set by their controlled mainstream media, which obviously knows how to stir up a mob.

Janitor said...

We see differing opinions with regards to BAR Council’s forum.

I think forum of this nature should go on. It must not be perceived as non-Muslims are opposing to Islam. In fact I believe more Muslims would have the opportunity to know the difficulties and traumatic experience that are put through for converts’ family in the event it is done without prior knowledge of the concerned family. That is the issue. Taking to court to decide who is wrong and right would not be necessary if the whole conversion is handled professionally and empathically. Here, I must point out the natural humanly manner that all could emulate regardless of ones race and religion “Do what pleases you, but do not what displeases others”. More to say, in this case it is not others; they are your own family members who have shared your flesh and blood, they have heart and souls, they too could feel the pain and sorrow. Faith cannot be forced upon others, it should come naturally.

Mahaguru58, giving you due respect, I would say most often if not conversion in Malaysia takes place for the purpose of getting married to a Muslim and in some cases for reasons many do not even know. Anyone who sincerely believes his religion is godly and he could liberate would do all possible things to show how his new religion has made him better. Unfortunately we do not see that in Malaysia.

What we see most of the time is:-

a) Someone secretly converts to Islam and continue to keep that as secret
b) Islamic Religious Department mostly do not act on these convert until death takes place; that is when they use their legal rights to claim the deceased who thus far posed as non-Muslim
c) There are also people who convert for material gains as Muslim in Malaysia are entitled for certain rights and privileges

Hence, for conversions taking place under the above mentioned circumstances, we cannot accept fairness and just as these converts themselves do it with ulterior motives in the absence of true love for the religion. Let me point it to you, these converts would not help Islam attain its glory but would in fact tarnish the nobility of it.

Also, may I pose these very pertinent questions to you? Hope you could give me answers in the name of god (Allah) you worship with your fullest heart and soul. My question to you:-

Islam as I know is way of life. It teaches one how to live a life that eventually leads him to god. What we have before us ‘A convert who has committed to emulate good manner takes his first blow (which is un-Islamic) at his wife and family who directly and indirectly helped him with their sincere hearts all the while. His blow is too strong that his non-Muslim siblings, wife and parents are literally injured so badly; and he never bothers to even heal them. Do you feel this is condonable?

No 2 is that, we have also another individual who converted secretly and maintained this secret through out his lifespan. To tell the truth he posed as non-Muslim living a fake life. Though he claimed he was Muslim but he did everything opposed to Islam. He ate food that was haram; he did “zina” by continued to have sex with his non-Muslim wife and in actual case I had someone who lived this life and was Hindu temple deputy committee chairman. Upon his death as usual the Jakim came and took ownership of his body. What is the point here my dear brother, a person who should have emulated the good teaching of the religion, did not do so, in fact in my eye he disgraced not only Islam but even Hinduism. Please have you say?

Religion is godly, no matter what religion it is. We, who claim religious, must do and behave as one; there is nothing for God to prove because most probably He is not going to appear before each and everyone to prove his existence and his mightiness. It is we, with our attitude, our humanity and love that could prove god the creator exists and he is the mightiest and most loving. My third question to you is “The 300 protestors, whom we saw, are they Muslim, did they show they are GODLIER than others?

Thanks,

Sincerely A Believer of Creator.

my said...

Tuan,

Saya beranggapan sebenarnya majlis peguam ini adalah sebuah badan yang sebenarnya adalah proksi kepada DAP. Ini bukan kali pertama majlis peguam mempersoalkan perihal Islam. Pada tahun 2004 mereka pernah menulis artikel tentang azan itu adalah pencemaran bunyi! Dan 2005 juga DAP pernah mengeluarkan kenyataan yang sama. Saya ada buat penulisan disini tentang Majlis Peguam sebenarnya adalah proksi DAP. Diharap semua ambil iktibar dari forum tersebut, dan jangan ulang kembali...

Anonymous said...

You guys got hijacked by UMNO.

Imagine that, the forum was going to have the following panelists:
Someone from FT Islamic Affairs Department who was a Syariah High Court judge. Quite authoritative right?
There was going to be a director of the Syariah Law and Political Science Centre and Senior Fellow of the Institute for Islamic Understanding of Malaysia.

But after the UMNO ministers started issuing warnings, these panelists then dropped out.

I think these people are legally and professionally more qualified than you or I to talk about Islamic laws? So why do you disagree with them about the purposes of the forum?

Perhaps like you suggested, the best way is to go through the Shariah courts, and the forum might have decided that would have been the best way at the moment, but we wouldnt know now, since the forum was disrupted won't we?

I haven't read your take on this, but I hope that you are true to your word that you would rather have intelligent discourse about the issues than be like some of the uncouth protesters.

Would you have supported the 'rempuh' suggestion?

MAHAGURU58 said...

klaw,

I agree with your points that those of us who were there purely to stand up for Islam got hijacked by the UMNO agents such as GPMS who tried times and times again to 'gempur' and 'serbu' the forum.

I do not support such ways. Period.

I still say that Subashini, Shamala and any others who feel that they have been shortchanged by the present system to pursue their cases through the Shariah Courts!

No amount of forums or seminars can solve their problems except through the proper justice systems.

Does the Bar Council possess decisive powers to decide on the cases?

No! They are lawyers and can only argue and plead their client's cases.

They do not have the authority to decide. That power lies in the courts and the decision of the judges, whether Shariah or Civil!

GPMS hijacked the protest.

I have published the video showing everything about the protest as it took place even where I myself lost my cool due to one PAS Youth's leader's moment of arrogance!

I am not proud of that, either.

To all Non Muslims who were ostracized by the agent provocateurs who hurled racist insults, all I can say is that we who went there to defend our faith feel embarrassed by their actions and are not in support of such blatant racism!

Do not think for a moment that the majority felt the same as those racists!

We Muslims do not condone racism, no matter who the taunters are?

You have got to learn to differentiate between Muslims who were there and the UMNO and GPMS racists.

UMNO and GPMS racists can't blame us either for we were there for Islam whilst they were there for the 'BANGSA MELAYU'!

Racism has no place in Islam. Hope you know that.

tzarina said...

Mahaguru,

I have a question for you.

Imagine if you were living in a Hindu country, with its own Hinduism based legal system. Say your Muslim wife converts to Hinduism, and went to the Hindu court to fight for custody of your children. Instead of the civil court which is not religion-biased. Would you expect justice from the Hindu court?

Or for that matter, would you subject yourself to Catholic church rules and laws?

It simply goes against your very nature, doesn't it? It also sounds like a blasphemy doesn't it?

Now, think. Fanatics also may include religious court judges. Would you want to put any lawsuits you have onto the hands of judges that may be fanatical about their religion, and judge against you because of your beliefs?

Well, regardless of what you may do, why should a non-Muslim who does not care, nor want to bother about the tenets of a religion that he/she does not prescribe in, or want to prescribe to, should subject themselves to the laws of that religion? Especially when there exists a civil system that is perfectly acceptable, non religion biased, which he/she had voted for, and trusts?

MAHAGURU58 said...

Dear tzarina,
Although what you conjure up with that reverse of situations may come across as possible and that there may be fanatical judges in your imagined scenario, I for one beg to disagree that the Shariah judges here would be unjust in their decisions.

In Islam my dear, we have the Holy Qur'an which we Muslims believe to be the Words of Allah, God Almighty and in it are provisions and rulings which constitute the basic Shariah Laws that we ascribe to?

We then have the Hadiths of the Final Messenger and Prophet of Allah, Muhammad Sallalahu Alaihi Wassallam which complements the rulings of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala in the Holy Qur'an.

We then have the Qias and 'Ijma of the Scholars of Islam which cover anything that is not specifically addressed in the Holy Qur'an and the Hadiths of the Prophet Sallalahu Alaihi Wassallam.

My question to you is that has any of these outstanding cases been referred to properly yet by the Shariah courts by the complainants?

Their cases involve Islamic rulings and circumstances which do need the involvement or deliberation by the Shariah justice system.

If their cases do not have any connection or involving matters that touch on Islam, by all means, go pursue such cases in the Civil courts and seek justice there.

But since these cases are those that are connected to Islam and apostasy from Islam, I am sure that you realize and understand that the Shariah Courts of Malaysia no matter that they are not a 100% following the true Shariah Laws of Allah and the Hadiths of the Prophet Muhammad, do still have jurisdiction over such cases as provided for by the Constitution of Malaysia!

So, dear tzarina, it is not up to you or me to decide otherwise.

If the complainants wish to seek justice for themselves, their children and hope for legal redress, then they have only one option, which is to fight their cases through the present Shariah system here in Malaysia and no where else!

We are not talking about the Indian Penal code or justice system here.

We are talking about the reality.

These cases are involving Malaysian citizens and touch on Islamic Affairs here in Malaysia.

No need to visualize some fictitious scenarios.

We need to address the present cases as they are and stick to what's real and not go imagining situations that are not and will not take place, not now or in the future?

I do believe that the Shariah Courts that we have here are capable of upholding justice as what took place for the late Nyonya Tahir and Siti Fatimah Tan Abdullah!

Wasn't that justice?

tzarina said...

Mahaguru,

Thank you for your replies.

I still do not agree that a marriage CONTRACT established through a civil court can have any other court's jurisdiction. It comes down to this very basic fundamental requirement; A contract is unbreakable, unless you follow the right channels. If the contract is broached for a civil marriage, does it not make sense to break it in civil court? The very fact that husbands go secretly to Syaria court behind their unconverted wives backs' to dissolve the marriage and convert their children reeks of conspiracy between the new converts and the Shariah court. Isn't there anything in Islam that argues for justice in such scenarios?

You still have not answered my question, as to whether you will subject yourself to a justice system based upon a religion you DO NOT believe in.

Your argument that judges in shariah court are perfect is not believable. Yes, the books might preach hundred and one things. But Humans have a tendency to ignore or manipulate them according to their own likes and dislikes. Most of us are not Muhammad or Jesus or Budha or Krishna, or Allah!

If every Malay/Muslim in this country followed the beautiful tenets of Islam, there would not be so much of corruption and criminal acts, perpetrated by Muslims themselves in Malaysia. If the so-called pious Islamic authorities follow the beautiful tenets of Islam, would they still forcefully separate a couple married for 21 years, and their 7 children from their mother ON MOTHER'S DAY? With so many examples of body, baby, wive, children snatching incidents on the name of Islam, do you really blame us for our prejudice against the practice of Islam in Malaysia?

Why do you and your group of similar minded Muslims encourage the enforcement of Islamic laws onto non-believers? Especially for an untested justice system which is in its infancy in Malaysia regarding conversion cases and conflicts between Muslims and non Muslims? What is so wrong with the civil court in cases where conflict of religion occurs? Instead of asking us to trust the Syaria court, why not ask the Muslim converts to trust the Civil court? After all, they have been following the tenets of civil justice all their lives, were they not?

Yes, lets look at reality, instead of imaginary scenarios. In Malaysia, the Law Reform (Marriage and Divorce) Act 1976 holds that divorce proceeding for marriages established by the civil court has to be undertaken in the civil courts. Hence, the syaria court has no jurisdiction over civil marriages! In which case, custody and alimony, etc all come under the jurisdiction of the Civil court. Any arguments here?

MAHAGURU58 said...

Dear tzarina,

You ask:

1)Why do you and your group of similar minded Muslims encourage the enforcement of Islamic laws onto non-believers?

2)Especially for an untested justice system which is in its infancy in Malaysia regarding conversion cases and conflicts between Muslims and non Muslims?

3)What is so wrong with the civil court in cases where conflict of religion occurs?

4)Instead of asking us to trust the Sharia court, why not ask the Muslim converts to trust the Civil court?

5)After all, they have been following the tenets of civil justice all their lives, were they not?

My answers:
1)I beg to differ. I and those who think like me aren't interested in enforcing our faith onto Non Muslims.

Instead we are interested to help get justice for those affected by their spouses converting into Islam without their prior knowledge or consent.

Believe me when I say that, people like me who are engaged in Dakwah do know that these cases exist.

My contacts in the Dakwah organizations know of these problems and we are all willing to help do what we can to help people like Subashini, Shamala and others get justice through the Shariah system because their ex spouses have become Muslims, have they not?

Thus, they come under the jurisdiction of the Sharia courts.

Embracing Islam does not absolve anyone from their responsibilities towards their ex wife or children or even parents?

If the said parties are willing to see what help we can give them, all they have to do is to contact us and pursue their cases through the Islamic Sharia system which to us Muslims, we believe in a 100%.

As to whether there are corrupt judges in the Sharia, let me reverse the case and ask you as to whether there have not been corrupt judges in the civil system?

More than the Sharia for sure!

Anyway, I do not wish to argue about which system is better but as a Muslim, you know clearly as to which system I prefer?

Now to your next question.

2) We are a young nation my dear. Just turning 51 years of age.

The Shariah courts here are just coming into being.

As a Muslim, I can assure you that what they have at the moment is still so far away from the true Sharia systems of Almighty Allah.

Yet , that should not give us an excuse to dismiss them off altogether.

The Sharia is based upon Almighty Allah's True Laws and Commandments.

It is way above human made laws.

The Sharia is open to all regardless of creed or color.

As long as the cases concern any points of reference or relevance to Islamic affairs, you have every right to seek justice through the Sharia.

It's not just for us Muslims.

Study about what took place in Makkah and Madinah involving the Jews and Non Muslims there?

Read as to how the Jews who were involved in cases against Muslims were surprised to see true justice be implemented in their favours even against prominent Muslims like Saiyidina Ali and others?

I will answer the remaining questions later as I have to go now.

Wait for the remaining answers.

Till then, take care of your health and stay cool.

:)

Peace be to you sis! @};-

Anonymous said...

mahaguru,
Thanks for the clarifications on your stand that the protest should have been peaceful, but was marred by the racist chants of UMNO and GPMS.

You are right. The Bar Council indeed does not have the right to determine the laws of the country. It is probably within the purview of the Shariah and civil courts to work out a legal framework to deal with such issues, and up to our parliamentarians to debate and discuss this law.

But let me share with you what I watched on ntv7 evening news the day the forum was cut short. They invited a guest, a Muslim lady, who was a participant in the Bar Council forum. I hope my memory serves me right, but I think she works for the Attorney-General's office dealing with Shariah law, and they have had meetings upon meetings discussing these issues, but there was never any action taken in the end. She felt that the forum was a good way to get this issue out in the open for discussion, for something to start to get done.

So, my personal opinion is that I wholly agree with you that the Bar council has no power to set or fix laws in our country. But because of the forum by the Bar Council, these issues are now out in the open, and are being discussed openly and intelligently by both Muslims and non-Muslims alike, because most people (except AAB and his UMNO lackeys) recognize that this is not a problem to be swept under the carpet.

So for that, I thank the Bar Council for the awakening of consciousness.

Trashed said...

I believe that you are a peaceful man and a peaceful protest was what you have originally envisaged. Unfortunately, it was hijacked by agent provacatuers. videos of which can be seen in cyberspace.

I agree with you that the Bar Council does not make the laws in Malaysia. Only Parliament does. The role of the Bar Council is as an industry group, if you will, with whom views are often sought and also may bring up issues that affect their industry and/or customers.

Tzarina, however, does brings up a critical point - if a contract is agreed to be executed & implemented according to civil court rulings, can this be abrogated to another court ?

For example, a number of Islamic financing instruments such as murabaha & ijara contracts are signed, sealed, delivered in the High Court of Malaya (a civil court). The holders of these instruments are both local and foreign institutions. Lets say the issuer defaults and does not want to pay up. I don't think the issuer can suddenly move to have the litigation proceedings to the Syariah Court, just because it is "Islamic" in concept.

The litigation and subsequent remedies have to be borne out in the civil court as this was the original jurisdiction that was agreed upon. Even if these instruments were sold to subsequent parties, they should be agreeable to the legal jurisdiction in the original contract (or its subsequent amendments) before they commit to purchase. Of course, you can have it heard in the Syariah court but I am sure that it requires a certain amount of the holders (usually >75%) to have that amended in the legal documentation.

So, if I may disagree with you, contractual obligations should be fulfilled within the jurisdiction under which they came about unless all contracting parties and the competing jurisdiction are agreeable. The question should not even arise whether the case can be brought to a competing jurisdiction.

We can all be good Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, etc in living our lives but where Common Law prevails where the twain meets, we should abide by it.

Peace.