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Saturday, August 09, 2008

Mufti Perak says the Malaysian Bar Council Forum Organizers ought to be held under the ISA!



So says the learned Mufti of the Perak Darul Ridzuan State Government with regard to the irresponsible and recalcitrant manner by which the Malaysian Bar Council chooses to still proceed with its plans to hold a forum which intends to interfere in Islam's official status here in the Kingdom of Malaysia and question the position of the Syariah Courts in judging cases which involve apostasy and the embracing of Islam by this nation's citizens?

When the Malaysian Government can arrest and imprison those they deem to be dangerous to the peace and internal security of Malaysia, what about these so called legal eagles who out of their egoistic mindsets thinking that just because they are lawyers, they can just ignore the sensitivities and feelings of the Muslims of this country and proceed with their plans to infringe on the Muslims rights of Malaysia and disregard the Malaysian Constitution which recognizes that Islam is the official religion of this nation and that no one is to interfere or cause problems to the running of its own affairs concerning the Islamic faith?

Do Malaysian Muslims go around poking their nose into the Non Muslim Malaysians religious affairs?

We don't!

We have lived in relative peace and harmony with our Non Muslims fellow citizens all these while.

We respect and allow Malaysian Non Muslim citizens to go about their affairs in peace and only protest when people such as these lawyers who have vested interests and hidden agendas start messing with Islam and us Muslims!

Malaysians ought to know the limits and borders of social comment and voicing out of opinions especially whatever that touches on the sensitivities of others and their religious faith?

I second the learned Mufti's call to arrest and throw into jail the Bar Council's Forum organizers for endangering the peace and harmony of this nation's citizens!

Today at 0830 am, we Muslims are going to protest against these arrogant and insensitive lawyers at their headquarters at 13, 15 and 17, Lebuh Pasar Besar, (near Central Market), KL.

Let's see whether the authorities are fair towards the Malaysian people and will arrest al these troublemakers masquerading as advocates and solicitors?

Soliciting for trouble and mayhem to break out in Malaysia by provoking us peace loving Muslims by touching on matters which we consider taboo and infringing upon the official status of Islam and our faith!

Time to teach these wayward big headed lawyers a valuable lesson in not stirring the hornet's nest!

O you Malaysian Bar Council instigators!

When you poke your nose into Malaysia's Muslims affairs unnecessarily, then do not cry foul when the Muslims rise up and protest against you!!!

Have you forgotten the golden rule,' Do not bite off more than you can chew?'

My pantun to you guys,' Terlajak perahu boleh di undur; terlajak perbuatan buruk padahnya!'

32 comments:

Nostradamus said...

Q10. ISA is needed because prevention is better than cure. (Fact or Fiction)
ISA diperlukan kerana pencegahan lebih baik daripada berubat kemudian. (Fakta atau Rekaan)

Q14. Freedom of religions and beliefs is a right of all Malaysians. (True or False)
Kebebasan ugama dan kepercayaan adalah hak semua rakyat Malaysia (Betul atau Salah)

Q15. Liberty is a right of all Malaysians. (True or False)
Kebebasan diri adalah hak semua rakyat Malaysia. (Betul atau Salah)

Q44. Little Napoleons are the ones ruling Malaysians. (True or False)
“Little Napoleons” sebenarnya yang memerintah rakyat Malaysia. (Betul atau Salah)

Q48. Freedom can only exist in the mind, not in real life. (True or False)
Kebebasan Cuma didapati dalam minda, tidak di dunia nyata. (Betul atau Salah)

Q49. Race and Religious supremacy are preached by satans. (True or False)
Ketuanan bangsa dan ugama adalah dikutbah oleh syaitan. (Betul atau Salah)

Answers at http://patek1472.wordpress.com
Jawapan di http://patek1472.wordpress.com

malayamuda said...

what happened when the learned Mufti spread sms es to others that Muslims were going to be converted in a church in Ipoh some time back.

What about the sms es abt dato Azhar Mansor's conversion to Christianity ?

What about the other racist and fanatical statements made by the "learned" Mufti ?

Why wasn't ISA used against the Mufti........I can tell you a lot of people were stirred up by his statements.

We must realise that if we want to protest and bully minorities here we must be prepared for a back lash. Minorities also can protest and spread sms es to meet and to uphold the sancity of Chrianity/Hinduism/ Buddhism etc etc.

As it is Malaysian police "intelligence" claims some people here have links with the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam......now u think our "bribed" police/army can withstand the attack by any other foreign militant group ?

Lets discuss/rationalise/unite/talk....many things can be solved just by talking

Janitor said...

Do you sincerely believe they are up to tarnish Islam and Muslims. Do you think they are there to create trouble for Malaysians.
I find we are overdoing at times. Just because it is about article 121, some non-Muslims will engage in the discussion, it would not mean Islam will be tarnished, Mahaguru. It is those who claim Muslim but do everything opposite Islam are tarnishing and troubling Islam.

In one of my comment to another article I wrote this with sincerity and respect to all those who believe in GOD, and to me HE IS ONE.. I reproduce here what I wrote:

I’m a non Muslim. Suppose I’m planning to convert to be a Muslim, isn’t that better for me to understand not only about the Dos and DON’Ts but also the legal aspects of my conversion. Also, wouldn’t that be my moral duty to my present non-Muslim wife to let her know of her legal rights in case she decides to stick to her original faith?

As long has one does not condemn, insult or instill hatred of another religion we should allow such forum to materialize. In fact through such effort Bar council should be able to educate affected parties and others who may be subject to such issues in future. Muslim and non-Muslim lawyers to their effect should come together to engage in such programs educating public of their legal rights under the constitution which could avoid misunderstanding among members of different religion at crucial times such as death and divorce.

Najib has, having been educated in overseas, being the DPM and PM in waiting for all Malaysians regardless of their religion and race should not be part of the narrow minded groups(probably so as they are ill-informed) which is unnecessarily instilling religious intolerance among people on such honest attempt.

I hope all could done in good spirit and full of trust and I think a lot could be said, maybe in another time.

CHee XtheMan said...

what i still recall very fresh is Hindu and chinese temple was demolished :-) Why not use ISA to detain those who demolish hindu temple in shah alam last year. One black eye again !!

Vijay said...

Cikgu melayu yang kat klang kutuk pasal india tak kena masuk ISA ke?

MAHAGURU58 said...

Dear brothers,

I agree with the majority of you who point out the various crimes by those racists amongst us who stir trouble by issuing insensitive comments and statements that hurt our Non Muslim neighbours and fellow citizens.

I agree that such heartless and inconsiderate diarrhea of the lips and mindset idiots should be made to pay for their errors!

Regarding the destruction and demolition of the temples, both Hindu and Chinese, we need to look into the matters which involve legal ownership of the lands upon which such temples were located?

I am sure that if the temples demolished were built on lands which the temple authorities have legal ownership, the local state authorities or those from the federal government departments can't touch such registered religious places.

We need to look at such cases from the legal perspectives on a case by case basis.

That's what I think?

If the temples were destroyed without official clearance, then those who are in charge of such temples can always sue the departments or individuals concerned?

That's if the temples are legally built in the first place?

Satria Asia said...

If issues don't touch people of other religion it's fine. But it does. People convert and they don't inform their family members. And when they die, problems arise, because suddenly family members discover the deceased had converted -- maybe.
And that is the issue that must be addressed. You cannot attempt to sweep it under the carpet and hope that it will go away. It won't as long as people are allowed to become Muslims without telling their closest kin ... wife...children...parents. AND this should be LAW!

malayamuda said...

Mahaguru,

I'm glad there are rational Muslims amongst us.

Any place of worship is sensitive. When UMNO broke the surau in Klang together with the temple, we know how the Muslims felt.

Nobody cared if the surau was on legal or illegal land. We were pissed with UMNO......period.

Thats bcos as good pious Muslims we hold the surau dear to our hearts.

I guess its the same for our Hindu brothers and sisters. The temple ,how delipitated is dear to their hearts.

Whether built illegally or legally, on state land or not, ANY place of worship should be treated as sensitive.

Discussions and dialogues should be held with the minorities and these discussions and dialogues should be spearheaded by the Muslim authorities themselves.

Dialogue and discussions should not be seen as a sign of our weakness , it should be seen as one of our strengths.

One of Islams strengths !

Trashed said...

Since this thread is about legal issues, interestingly enough, the UK Muslim fraternity has recently moved to provide legal structure towards gender equality in Muslim marriages, which may drive a wedge between the traditionalist thinkers and the progressive ones.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2518720/New-Sharia-law-marraige-contract-gives-Muslim-women-rights.html

Adam said...

salam mahaguru..saya bersama2 mahaguru pagi tadi di depan bar council..tak sempat kita nak bersembang...


moga kita berjumpa lagi Insya Allah..

p/s : moga dapat berguru dan menimba ilmu dari mahaguru

malayamuda said...

and why was Anwar Ibrahim's PKR rep from Kulim - Bandar Baru there ?

Whats Anwar's stand on this issue ?Anwar cannot promise a better Malaysia when he cant even keep his bloody PKR MP's in check

tzarina said...

Mahaguru,

I respect your open mind (to a certain extent) on practicing Islam.

But on this topic, I disagree with you.

You said:
"Do Malaysian Muslims go around poking their nose into the Non Muslim Malaysians religious affairs?

The answer is a resounding, loud YES!!

You, and Mufti Perak (an overzealous fanatic) are both wrong in speaking against the forum by the Bar Council to discuss the affects of conversions.

This forum is to discuss LEGAL issues arising from conversions into Islam, for the non-Muslim family members. When a non-Muslim converts to Islam, he has the Syariah court, the civil courts (who hand over the cases to Syariah court on a silver platter), the various religious bodies like Jakim, Abim, Jais etc, not to mention the Articles in the constitution to support him. What avenue does the non-Muslim family member such as parents, children, wives, husbands, etc have when this happens?

In a country with 40% non-Muslims, sweeping such issues under the pretex of "sensitive topic" is being ignorant and purposefully discriminative!

I don't know where you have been when the cases of Subashini, Shamala, Moorthy, Gan Eng For, Rayappan, Susie Teoh, Chang Ah Mee, Revathi Masoosai, Raimah Bibi, Rukumony etc etc etc were going on in Malaysia?

Read this, if you would like to know what happened in each of their cases.

Then tell us that this forum is unnecessary.

Janitor said...

Mahaguru commented:

I am sure that if the temples demolished were built on lands which the temple authorities have legal ownership, the local state authorities or those from the federal government departments can't touch such registered religious places.

We need to look at such cases from the legal perspectives on a case by case basis.

That's what I think?

If the temples were destroyed without official clearance, then those who are in charge of such temples can always sue the departments or individuals concerned.
-----------------------------------

Dear Zainol,

It is very encouraging as we speak outspokenly on faiths you and I differ and thanks for giving space to air our differing views. Firstly I never want to argue or defend my faith as I’m almost illiterate as regards to faith is concern. So, be assured I would not defend mine or anybody’s for that matter.

Now, allow me to explain on your caption that I’ve reproduced here. (Temples were demolished because it was owned by different party.)

a) The problem is most of these temples were built many years ago, in some cases over 150 years ago. It was during the time the British who had the authority. After independence and during the time of industrialization, many estates were disappearing giving in for development. Those who had the authority should have used their prerogative power to ensure these temples were preserved by providing independent titles but they did not. Why?
b) Secondly, on your suggestion that the affected temple authorities should have sued those caused the demolitions. Jokes aside, with stooge MIC and other bodies who were fully controlled by BN, what could be expected of, more so as we see even ex-DPM could be victimized.
So, it shows the limitation of minority groups. Never mind, let us talk a bit more on issues surfacing to article 121. Again before I could go into that, let me produce another comment I posted in Malaysia Today after reading RPK’s article on Anwar’s press release yesterday. In that I had said:

“To me God is ONE and we (human) created holy books. If the religion RPK professes refer to Islam and if this is how Islam must be practiced, I would not mind joining RPK following his faith because that is what I believe in. but tell me Can I in this country?”

Most of the time we expect others to listen to us, why can’t at least we attempt to listen to others. Non-Muslims do not have any issues with Muslims in this country except the Muslims fear of being influenced by others. That has to be removed from the minds of Muslims first of all. Let me give another true example or event that is taking shape among us friends.
I have a business that involves soft skill management. We provide series of training to corporate executives and managers. With two of my other consultants I’m working on a leadership program called “Importance of Transformational Leadership Qualities”. We have selected role modals, from Hinduism-Lord Krishna, From Christianity- Jesus Christ, from Islam- Nabi Mohamad and Buddhism- Gauthama Buddha. All of us are non-Muslims but we sit together with relevant people to gather the respective qualities of these immortals. All of are mesmerized with so many beautiful lessons and wisdoms that we have been learning through this process. We expect to relay their transformational qualities through leadership programs to leaders and managers. To be frank our respect for Islam has grown more than before while appreciating our respective faiths.

So Zainol, let us understand each other better not only as fellow neighbours but also as practicing members of different faiths. Will continue….

May God Bless All.

Anonymous said...

all this brutal action by Muslim is showing the TRUE MUSLIM COLOUR?

How amazing... I love every part of it.

More more more protest to show the world how muslim act!

Kinetic said...

what the fuss? It is just a discussion to close the gap between 2 laws. What’s wrong to close the gap so that there is no dispute later when comes to certain matter? This is call system improvement. After the discussion, then propose the solution for review. If there is a dispute, then work out together lah. What’s fuss? When i see today’s situation, it links my thought back to those ancient day. Still remember one philosopher was punished fire burning because he claimed that there was nothing after the sky( people/authority beleive there was a god’s place), and ironic that it has been proven that today, it is just the cosmic after the sky. Our certain people mentality is a problem when come to religious. Vision 2020? too far for reaching…

MAHAGURU58 said...

malayamuda,

You have raised valid points and I agree to most of them.

Dialogue is good but in cases like these, it's almost always Islam that seems to be on the receiving end in whatever forums or seminars organized by people with vested interests such as the Malaysian Bar Council and the IFC or the Article 11 group.

I suggest that the Malaysian Bar Council go and talk to JAKIM if they really are not happy about anything concerning Islam!

It is preposterous of the Bar Council Islamophobes to hold this and that forum to DISCUSS ISLAMIC AFFAIRS for they know nuts about what Islam is and what it is not?

Go and talk to JAKIM!

We wouldn't bother to protest such a meeting but to be so bold and bigheaded in holding a forum that touches on the sensitivities of Muslims without going to the proper Islamic authorities shows the arrogance of the Malaysian Bar Council in ignoring calls of the Malaysian Prime Minister and Federal Government Ministers to stop that forum!

Bar Council members forget that they are only lawyers and not Kings or Sultans to do as they damn well please?

MAHAGURU58 said...

trashed,

Thanks for the update bro.

Good to know that.

In reality, Islam takes care of everybody but the rulers here utilize only parts of Islam that they feel is okay with them and leave out parts that they are not comfortable with?

So to me, I suggest that all Muslims go back to practicing Islam as what Allah SWT and Rasul SAW have left us?

Islam is already complete and perfect.

It is we who need to live up to it!

MAHAGURU58 said...

Wa'alaikumsalam Wr Wb Adam.

Jazakallah kerna sudi memaklumkan akan kehadiran Adam tadi bersama sama dengan umat Islam yang membantah forum Majlis Peguam pagi tadi.

Insya Allah bilamana di-izinkan Rabbul Jalil nanti, pasti akan kita bertemu jua.

Saya berdo'a agar Allah SWT memberkati kita dengan kejernihan hati, kefahaman agama dan kekuatan Iman serta keperkasaan semangat berjihad menentang musuh musuh Islam dari luar dan dalam jamaah Islamiyah!

Do'akan saya berjaya mendirikan Pusat Islam di Masjid Jamek nanti.

Insya Allah boleh kita menggembeleng tenaga menjayakan kelas kelas agama disana nanti.

Saya do'akan kejayaan Adam didalam hal hal duniawi dan akhirat kelak.

Amin.

Wassalamualaikum wr wb.

MAHAGURU58 said...

malayamuda,

YB Zul was there in his capacity as an Exco member of the Persatuan Peguam Pembela Islam.

I learn that he received a warning phone call from the PKR Headoffice for heading the protest today?

There is talk of expelling him from the PKR party for his stand against this forum which I hear is sanctioned by the PKR Supreme Chameleon Leader!

Oops! Did I say Chameleon?

More like Sumpah Sumpah it seems!

MAHAGURU58 said...

Sister tzarina.

I have been following your writings as well and know where you stand as far as issues relating to Islam and Non Muslims are concerned?

Thank you for commenting here though.

You see tzarina, both me and the Mufti of Perak are dedicated Muslims.

So are millions of our fellow Malaysian Muslims.

We love our faith with all of our hearts and if needed to won't shy away from standing up for it?

You can call us whatever you wish for that is your choice?

We really do not worry too much about what Non Muslims or even Muslims in name call us for the most important thing for us is what does Allah the Almighty think of us?

We live and we die for the sake of Allah!

Period!

Nothing else matters that much to us.

This thing about the cases concerning the ones who have been caught in matters of 'apostasy' in my opinion is more a case by case basis.

Each of those cases differ from one another by criteria of certain circumstances.

I have been following all such cases purely on a spectator basis for as a Malaysian citizen, I don't have any authority to decide on such cases, do I?

Even in my present capacity as the Protem President of the yet to be registered Muslim Bloggers Alliance, the most I can do is to share what I feel about such cases here in my blog.

As The Muslim Bloggers Alliance, we can issue an official stand later on about these cases but our statements will be only that of a Mutual Benefits Society and Muslim NGO.

The power lies with the Malaysian authorities.

What I suggest is for people like you and those amongst the Non Muslim Bloggers and Social activists is to go meet the Malaysian Islamic Development Department @ JAKIM who represent the Malaysian Prime Minister's Department and discuss these cases on a proper basis.

Arguing amongst ourselves will lead to nothing other than only enmity between us fellow Malaysians.

This forum by the Islamophobes in the Bar Council only serves to placate their self pontificating bloated egos.

It does nothing good for Islam here in Malaysia nor does it improve the socio-political-religious relations between us Muslims and folks who aren't?

To me, the forum or discussion about anything relating to Islam and Muslim affairs initiated by the Bar Council ought to be held between them and JAKIM, not the general Malaysian public!

MAHAGURU58 said...

Brother janitor,

Good valid points!

Congratulations sir. :)

My best wishes for you bro.

MAHAGURU58 said...

Greetings Brothers Edi and kinetic.

It's all a matter of perspective, bro's.

To you we come across as brutal.

To us, we are only watching out for our faith and our fellow Muslims.

Unless you see it from our points, we will look brutal to you as you and all those in the Bar council come to seem so very bloody busy body and interfering in our Islamic affairs?

So, there you have it!

Perception and perspective my dear fellow Malaysians.

That's the key word to solve our differences of opinions and viewpoints.

Frankly speaking, what Disbelievers perceive us to be is not the slightest concern to folks like me and my like minded Ikhwanul Mujahideens!

:)

We care more about what God Almighty, Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala makes of us?

Cheers! :D

Snowflake said...

Assallamualaikum
Dear Mahaguru
I for once has to admit that this is the best article I have read throughtout my blogging since 7mths ago. It is because the right to stand for our religion.
The issue of racism is common everywhere in the world for as long as it does not go overlimit, then it still can be resolved. However, I must say when it comes to our religion, especially when one tries to show cause by displeasing it, then it is NO COMPROMISE. NO COMPROMISE AT ALL. We must fight and fight these so called "intelectuals" so that it makes them know that we are not easily taken for a ride just because we are tolerant muslims.
I have to tell you that I share the same dissapointment as you do in this topic. Allahu Akhbar.
Wassallam

tzarina said...

Mahaguru,

Thank you for your arguments.

I would like to insist that those cases mentioned above, which involve families of Non Muslims stuck in a limbo because of conversions to Islam by people they trusted, are LEGAL issues. The argument here is not which religion is better, or whether Non Muslims are better people than Muslims, vice versa, or whether Non-Muslims are insulting Islam.

The forum was organized by lawyers, discussing legal holes in our country, when it comes to conversion cases. Holes that require immediate solutions, so that widows, children, husbands, wives and parents do not get entangled within it, and their lives disrupted forever. Have the Muslims no compassion for families of Non Muslims? Or is it acceptable for this to continue happening, as long as they have one more member in their community? What would your reaction be if this situation is reversed, and Muslim families are the ones getting the slack from the law?

When it comes to LEGAL issues regarding conversion cases, is it the job of the NGOs? Or the job of the government? Or some religious body like Jakim?

No.

Legal issues are for judges and lawyers. Who better to discuss the ambiguities in our justice system than lawyers themselves? If we block lawyers from doing this, then we might as well hand over all law matters to the hands of the public, the government (which is NOT supposed to interfere), religious bodies, and whoever who care to implement their own version of justice.

When the justice system is influenced by a lawyer's millions, these same people who protested will probably make a lot of hue and cry. But when the justice system is influenced by his religion, that is acceptable? What justice are we talking about here then? Justice for Malaysians, or justice for Muslims?

It is a real pity. When I watched documentaries on Islam, I am filled with awe at the principles of justice during the early days of Islam, especially during the Othoman Empayar. Where have such principles gone to?

Vish said...

Tzarina,

You stated that, "You, and Mufti Perak (an overzealous fanatic) are both wrong in speaking against the forum by the Bar Council to discuss the affects of conversions."

I'm afraid in this one statement (and some others of that like), I must disagree with you completely.

Personally, I don't agree with the mufti of Perak or mahaguru58's stand on this matter, however to judge them as being 'wrong' to state their opinions is to be effectively sinking to their level.

Here's how I see the situation:

1. The Bar council organized a forum.
2. Various groups felt this was 'wrong' and sought to stop it.
3. Various other groups feel that trying to stop the forum was 'wrong' too and, well, here we are.

Seems to me that all of us, Mahaguru and you included, Tzarina, must decide if the statement of opinions that may touch on sensitive issues is 'wrong' or not.

If we as Malaysians decide that it is wrong, then it should be wrong regardless of whether it is wrong to Muslims, Atheists, Christians, or whomever. And at the same time, let us go back to the days when we would sweep everything under the carpet. Forget racial, religious, or political unity, we can just have continue the sham that has been in place for over fifty years.

If on the other hand, we as Malaysians decide that we should discuss things openly, then it would seem that we have a lot of growing up to do.

-Vish.

MAHAGURU58 said...

Vish,

What low levels of thinking of mine and the Perak Mufti are you talking about?

It's so easy to label people as this and that brother without trying to understand about our concerns and feelings, etcetera.

Till Doomsday brother, I don't think that Malaysians can ever come to a stage where we can learn to live and let live!

Know the reasons why?

Because Malaysians simply do not have it in them to appreciate what we have and would rather sink the very ship we are all aboard out of their tendencies to drill a hole in the hull in order to get water for their needs, selfishly.

We just ask that Non Muslims who have issues with the Islamic affairs concerning apostates, etc, go meet JAKIM and discuss about whatever it is that they are not pleased with?

Low levels?

Sheeesh..will we ever be able to appease anyone who is out there itchy to create problems and mess with us Muslims?

Almighty Allah tells us that till The Last Day, Non Believers will continue to have issues with us!

Do you even wonder just how equally hurtful your assumptions are?

Janitor said...

My comment is meant to those who perceived to be Muslims but NOT REAL MUSLIMS. SO REAL MUSLIMS YOU ARE OK.
-------------------------------------
(My description of this story could vary a little, but the gist of lesson in tact).

I learned from a dear Muslim friend of mine many years ago of something Nabi Mohammad practiced which impressed me and to this date vivid in my mind, but unfortunately most fellow Muslims in this country fail to emulate, It's very shameful to call oneself a Muslim but never practice the teaching of Nabi.

Once, Nabi Mohammad was with his followers in a mosque after his prayers, resting. So came a person who asked one of Nabi's followers if he could perform his prayer there, but he was a Christian, a non-Muslim. Annoyed to understand a non-Muslim in the mosque, the follower together with others wanted him out immediately. But, having noticed this, Nabi stopped them from doing so. Nabi told him to use the mosque to his pleasure of performing his prayers. Shocked by Nabi's action his followers requested for his explanation. To which Nabi said, God is One, so when someone, though he is not a Muslim, his intention is noble and as good Muslim we must allow him to perform his duty to god. That was Nabi then and this is Malaysians Muslims of now.

What do you want to prove as Muslims? I may not be a practicing Muslim but I vouch I do practice some of the values Islam professes and I have absolute respect for Islam but not for those who belittle Islam like today at this forum.

Shame on you fellows who refuse to acknowledge other faiths.
Tell me if Nabi or Islam said differently.

Vish said...

I dislike having to repeat, but I am unconcern about who is on a 'lower' or 'higher' level - hence why I didn't use those terms. I suppose using the figure of speech 'sinking to their level' was a bad move on my part, so let me rephrase, and hopefully this time help you understand.

By: 'Personally, I don't agree with the mufti of Perak or mahaguru58's stand on this matter, however to judge them as being 'wrong' to state their opinions is to be effectively sinking to their level.'

I meant: 'Walaupun saya tidak setuju dengan pendapat mufti Perak ataupun mahaguru58, tetapi menilai pendapat mereka sebagai 'salah' adalah untuk bertindak pada taraf yang sama dengan mereka.'

To further clarify: We can sit back and label each other as 'right' and 'wrong' all day long, for thousands upon thousands of yeas if you like. You and the mufti of Perak can label the Bar Council as 'wrong', others can label you as 'wrong' in turn.

I don't care who is right or wrong - all it does is continue the circle of mistrust that so many suffer from.

Hence why, as I said, we all face a decision. If you (and Tsarina too) are truly satisfied to continue perpetuating mistrust, then I will not stop you (lets face it, it is not my place to do so).

The -only- reason I even am commenting on this is because, I felt that perhaps the discourse might help you see just how we're perpetuating age-old hatred.

If I hurt your feelings with my comments, then I apologize, but sometimes the truth, or at least ones perception of it, does hurt.

-Vish.

M Kumar said...

Islam is a peaceful religion, but many Muslims are first to resort to violence when agitated.

Islam teaches love and respect, but many Muslims are blinded by hatred and disrespect.

Islam allows freedom of expression and intelligent discussion, but many Muslims are first to rush to the streets and shout down to those who don't hold the same views.

Islam is a religion with strong foundations, but many Muslims are quick to claim an insult or threat to the religion.

Islam encourages creative and independent thinking, but many Muslims are first to listen to rumours and act blindly on them.

Islam is a wonderful faith and way of life for billions of people on our planet. It's just sad to see how the actions of the few are tarnishing the image of all Muslims, at least in my non-Muslim eyes.

fade0 said...

mahaguru .. why do you waste ur time arguing with the disbelievers. Let them be with their miguided sense of religeous justice and freedom to choose manifestos. Let them talk about their old temples and statues built on lands that don't belong to them, or about their disatisfaction when a family member converts to Islam and wishes to be buried instead of burned.

Let them be .. let them be... Remember what the quran tells us on what will happen to them in the afterlife? Hence how can you stop someone from jumping into the fire?

In this life ... in this country .. as long as we have the 66% majority and control of the govt, police & army, the disbelievers can do nothing but follow our wishes. So talking or arguing about this will not change a thing.

petestop said...

It is weird that Muslims perceived this forum as a injustice done to them.

How can it be an injustice when that one religion, protected under the constitution, who gets 95% of the whole country's budget to build their places of worship, who unilaterally declared the country as a its own religion country... and can practically gets away with violent disruption to peaceful forums... and person wearing GPMS T-shir and claiming he is from UMNO, calling "You India, Cina... go to hell".

Please say that it is injustice to the Chinese wife of 30 years to a man who secretly married an Iranian lady, and when he died, later found that she have lost all her properties as she is not recognised as that man's wife under Syariah law.

Is this Islamic Justice ??

MAHAGURU58 said...

pete,

first and foremost, there were some agent provocateurs in the protest and the one that I saw misbehaving worst was the GPMS Vice President Jais Abdul Karim and some unidentified persons who were shouting racist slurs against those leaving the forum!

I myself took offense at a PAS Youth Head named Rizuan who was very rude and arrogant in his manners towards even myself when I challenged his abrasive manner in asking the protesters to sit down on the hot tarmac?

Maybe the fellow didn't know me or who I am so he thought he could get away with being 'kurang ajar' but I confronted him and made sure that he apologized to me there and then.

So, yes the protest was hot and tempers flared!

I am not happy that there were racists amongst the protesters who used the moment to spew forth such curses but it was pure pandemonium and even the FRU could,'t control the crowd!

What I was surprised is that several Special Branch officers to whom I asked for help in bringing Jais down from the steps where he was practically raging at the top of his lungs just let him rant and rave and stopped us from going near Jais and calm him down or what?

It was like they purposely let Jais blow off steam as he pleased?

That perplexes me even to this moment?

Another thing I'd like to say is that I don't think the Bar Council can solve any outstanding problems involving dead or divorced converts to Islam on their own?

Are the Bar Council capable of effecting change to those persons lives by holding such forums or wouldn't justice be better served by going through the legal system and engage with the proper authorities representing the Government such as JAKIM?

What is the point of raising such sensitive issues through an open forum like what they did and disregarded calls from even the PM himself to call the forum off?

There were many unanswered questions and what seemed to me like a purposeful allowance of certain instigators like the GPMS VP to turn the protest into such an uncontrollable turn of events!

To answer your question, as to whether that was Islamic Justice, the answer is NO!

The proper way to go seek justice is to go through the Shariah Courts and plead their cases before the Hakim's!

As the deceased or divorded persons were and are Muslims, the Non Muslim survivors have every right to seek justice through the Shariah courts and when found to be in the right, they will surely be reinstated whatever properties or trusts that they are entitled to?

Believe me that we can pursue this through the Shariah courts and get the truth be told there.

Not through useless and ineffective forums!

That's what I think!