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Monday, July 27, 2009

What does the Christian Bible have to say about the illegitimate child or person?

<< Deuteronomy 23:2 >>

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the LORD.

King James Bible
A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

American King James Version
A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

American Standard Version
A bastard shall not enter into the assembly of Jehovah; even to the tenth generation shall none of his enter into the assembly of Jehovah.

Douay-Rheims Bible
A mamzer, that is to say, one born of a prostitute, shall not enter into the church of the Lord, until the tenth generation.

Darby Bible Translation
A bastard shall not come into the congregation of Jehovah; even his tenth generation shall not come into the congregation of Jehovah.

English Revised Version
A bastard shall not enter into the assembly of the LORD; even to the tenth generation shall none of his enter into the assembly of the LORD.

Webster's Bible Translation
A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

World English Bible
A bastard shall not enter into the assembly of Yahweh; even to the tenth generation shall none of his enter into the assembly of Yahweh.

Young's Literal Translation
a bastard doth not enter into the assembly of Jehovah; even a tenth generation of him doth not enter into the assembly of Jehovah.

דברים 23:2 Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad Codex
לֹא־יָבֹ֥א מַמְזֵ֖ר בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דֹּ֣ור עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָ֥בֹא לֹ֖ו בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָֽה׃ ס

דברים 23:2 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
לא־יבא ממזר בקהל יהוה גם דור עשירי לא־יבא לו בקהל יהוה׃ ס

דברים 23:2 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants & Vowels)
לֹא־יָבֹא מַמְזֵר בִּקְהַל יְהוָה גַּם דֹּור עֲשִׂירִי לֹא־יָבֹא לֹו בִּקְהַל יְהוָה׃ ס

דברים 23:2 Hebrew Bible
לא יבא ממזר בקהל יהוה גם דור עשירי לא יבא לו בקהל יהוה׃

Apocalypsis 22:21 Latin: Biblia Sacra Vulgata
non ingredietur mamzer hoc est de scorto natus in ecclesiam Domini usque ad decimam generationem

Deuteronomio 23:2 Spanish: La Biblia de las Américas (©1997)
Ningún bastardo entrará en la asamblea del SEÑOR, ninguno de sus descendientes, aun hasta la décima generación, entrará en la asamblea del SEÑOR.

Deuteronomio 23:2 Spanish: La Nueva Biblia de los Hispanos (©2005)
"Ningún bastardo entrará en la asamblea del SEÑOR, ninguno de sus descendientes, aun hasta la décima generación, entrará en la asamblea del SEÑOR.

Deuteronomio 23:2 Spanish: Reina Valera (1909)
No entrará bastardo en la congregación de Jehová: ni aun en la décima generación entrará en la congregación de Jehová.

Deuteronomio 23:2 Spanish: Sagradas Escrituras (1569)
No entrará bastardo en la congregación del SEÑOR; ni aun en la décima generación entrará en la congregación del SEÑOR.

Deuteronomio 23:2 Spanish: Modern
No entrará el bastardo en la congregación de Jehovah. Ni aun en la décima generación entrará en la congregación de Jehovah.

Deutéronome 23:2 French: Louis Segond (1910)
Celui qui est issu d'une union illicite n'entrera point dans l'assemblée de l'Eternel; même sa dixième génération n'entrera point dans l'assemblée de l'Eternel.

Deutéronome 23:2 French: Darby
L'enfant illégitime n'entrera pas dans la congrégation de l'Éternel; même sa dixième génération n'entrera pas dans la congrégation de l'Éternel.

Deutéronome 23:2 French: Martin (1744)
Le bâtard n'entrera point dans l'assemblée de l'Eternel, même sa dixième génération n'entrera point dans l'assemblée de l'Eternel.

Deutéronome 23:2 French: Ostervald (1744)
Le bâtard n'entrera point dans l'assemblée de l'Éternel; même sa dixième génération n'entrera point dans l'assemblée de l'Éternel.

5 Mose 23:2 German: Luther (1912)
23:3 Es soll auch kein Hurenkind in die Gemeinde des HERRN kommen, auch nach dem zehnten Glied, sondern soll allewege nicht in die Gemeinde des HERRN kommen.

5 Mose 23:2 German: Luther (1545)
Es soll auch kein Hurenkind in die Gemeine des HERRN kommen, auch nach dem zehnten Glied, sondern soll schlecht nicht in die Gemeine des HERRN kommen.

5 Mose 23:2 German: Elberfelder (1871)
Es soll kein Bastard in die Versammlung Jehovas kommen; auch das zehnte Geschlecht von ihm soll nicht in die Versammlung Jehovas kommen. -

申 命 記 23:2 Chinese Bible: Union (Traditional)
私 生 子 不 可 入 耶 和 華 的 會 ; 他 的 子 孫 , 直 到 十 代 , 也 不 可 入 耶 和 華 的 會 。

申 命 記 23:2 Chinese Bible: Union (Simplified)
私 生 子 不 可 入 耶 和 华 的 会 ; 他 的 子 孙 , 直 到 十 代 , 也 不 可 入 耶 和 华 的 会 。

申 命 記 23:2 Chinese Bible: NCV (Simplified)
私生子不可进耶和华的会;他的后代直到第十代,也不可进耶和华的会。

申 命 記 23:2 Chinese Bible: NCV (Traditional)
私生子不可進耶和華的會;他的後代直到第十代,也不可進耶和華的會。

A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD

Deuteronomy 23:2 Multilingual Bible

Deutéronome 23:2 French

Deuteronomio 23:2 Biblia Paralela

申 命 記 23:2 Chinese Bible

New American Standard Bible Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation, La Habra, Calif. All rights reserved. For Permission to Quote Information visit http://www.lockman.org.

ScriptureText.com Multilingual Bible

***********************************************************************************

I received a comment from a blogger friend of mine, Brother Emmanuel Joseph about the matter of the illegitimate child of the late Teoh Beng Hock where Brother Emmanuel speaks of having compassion for the unfortunate child and that we ought to have pity upon it for it is innocent of the sin that its unmarried parents have committed!

I for one am just saying that we can't simply go against God's Rule in legitimizing a bastard child just because we feel pity for it.

The difference between a bastard and a lawful child is the status of the parents union.

If the child is conceived after marriage, then the child is a legitimate offspring and has all the rights accorded by not only the law but by any of the parents faith.

Any child conceived before marriage is a bastard @ illegitimate and there is no room for anyone to come declare it as otherwise.

We do not have the right to make halal what God has forbidden and we are not to make haram whatever that The Almighty has allowed.

Period.

Brother Emmanuel is a gentle soul and I understand his general compassion and outlook on the matter but mere compassion upon the state of an illegitimate offspring of an unmarried couple under whatever faith or religion here on this earth has no grounds to legitimize that foetus.

We can argue from dawn till dusk about this matter but even as we opinionate as we please, we are in no position to make right what is absolutely wrong before Almighty God.

I rest my case.

Those who are not happy about it can go engage a lawyer and fight their case in court!

Good luck! :)

19 comments:

MoneyMatters@Nizam said...

Salam Tuan,

Kerana itulah Islam adalah agama yg syumul dan lengkap. Kita tidak dibenarkan mengubah apa2 hukum yg telah termaktub HALAL dan HARAM walau dgn apa alasan sekalipun kerana ianya adalah HAK ALLAH.

Kerana itu jugalah, jikalau kita lihat kenapa begitu berpusu2 org2 bukan Melayu menganut Kristian, adalah kerana mereka berpendapat ianya merupakan agama yg secocok dgn hawa nafsu mereka sendiri.Jadi walaupun di dalam bible terang2an mengatakan HARAM, tetapi boleh pula hendak diubah dgn sekadar SIMPATI dan TOLERANSI. Inilah yg menyebabkan manusia tidak takut dan terus2an melakukan maksiat, zina kerana tidak bimbang akan kelahiran zuriat diluar nikah.

MAHAGURU58 said...

Wa'alaikumsalam Saudaraku Nizam,

Inilah sebenarnya punca kepada segala masaalah manusia.

Seandainya setiap penganut apa apa fahaman atau agama, mengikuti sebaik mungkin undang undang didalam agama anutan mereka, tidak akan timbul segala masaalah sekarang ini.

Baik orang orang Islam, Kristian, Hindu, Buddha, Sikh, dsbnya!

Sekiranya setiap manusia ini akur kepada ajaran agama yang di anutinya, saya yakin segala kes kes jenayah didalam mana mana masyarakat akan kurang secara drastik serta merta!

Masaalahnya sekarang ini, kebanyakan manusia yang mengaku beragama itu dan ini hanya beragama ala kadar sahaja dan tidak peduli tentang suruhan dan larangan agama masing masing!

Inilah sebabnya kita perlu bermujahadah menegakkan undang undang dan Perintah Allah ke atas manusia yang mengaku beriman padaNya dan menganjurkan penganut agama lain untuk turut sama berpegang kepada ajaran agama masing masing!

Bila manusia sekadar berdrama swasta sahaja didalam amalan agama masing masing, hasilnya adalah masyarakat yang pincang dan songsang!

Inilah sebabnya saya tidak ambil peduli akan bantahan mereka yang terpesong jauh dari agama masing masing.

Jika kita akur dan layan kehendak mereka ini, kita akan turut bersubahat dengan penyelewengan mereka!

Na`uzubillahiminzalik!

bumblebee said...

Deuteronomy 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

2 Kings 14:6
But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.


Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

MAHAGURU58 said...

So bumblebee, do you mean to say that the above verses which you have sent here contradict the verse in Deuteronomy 23:2 ?

I know that this matter if discussed based upon the above contradicting verses will open up another Pandora Box of conflicting stands but surely an illegitimate offspring can't be whitewashed into becoming a lawful one even if one comes up with a thousand and one pro or contra religious scriptures?

A bastard no matter if born to even royalty remains as one and will never be accepted by Man or God Almighty save for those perverts of justice who delude themselves into thinking that they know best!

bumblebee said...

God contradicts my mind and thoughts all the time, He plays games with me, and only He knows whatever plans He has for children of Adam, even before there was light on earth. Juxtaposition are aplenty, try Revelation. There's even dietary requirement conflicts. Saya begitu pasti masuk neraka kerana tidak dapat mengikut kehendakNya yang alim.

He invites us to read the Bible to speak to us, disputing defeat's His purpose.
I treasure how He challenges us like that, thank you Mahaguru.

PRAY,IT WORKS. joe's blog said...

I need to point out all the quotes on the bastard child is from the old testament(the first part of the bible). In the second part The New Testament comes Jesus. Here in Jesus is Compassion, Forgiveness. Here I believe the bastard child is admissible.

warrior2 said...

Saya hanya nampak Brother Emmanuel mengatakan "have pity". Beliau tidak suruh legitamise!

MAHAGURU58 said...

Brother bumblebee,

I understand your points sir and can't help feeling the same save for saying that He Who is Our Almighty Creator chooses to play with us?

I think it is rather our circumstances to be born during these challenging times where material wealth and our insatiable lusts for life and all that it has to give has rather become the main priorities in human life than what was considered to be more important back then being religious submission to The Lord, Most Gracious, Most High.

I too have never considered myself worthy of His Paradise for I know that I am just another of his servants, not free from sin or mistakes.

Yet there comes a time in our own individual life's where we repent and seek His forgiveness and try our level best to tread on His Way, the Path to Salvation.

Never have I trumpeted myself to be infallible but there are many blinkered ones out there who think that I consider myself to be holier than them!

Hehehehe...poor folks.

Needlessly confusing themselves into thinking that I for one am amongst those who think that they have a bloody halo over their heads.

Sorry to disappoint them.

Anyway, as persons who wish to obey God Almighty and advise our fellow mankind against going astray like so many before us, I leave it to Him to judge me and take heart that at least I have done my part which is to help spread the message from Him that we who are adults should at least learn from our mistakes and try to at least correct ourselves and those like us into living a life that befits true repentant servants of Allah the Almighty.

Insya Allah.

Thanks for being courteous bumblebee.

May He save us all.

Ameen.

MAHAGURU58 said...

Joe,

I know that you mean well but as a Muslim, I see more relativity between the Old Testament and the Final Testament which is our Holy Al Quran Al Kareem in dealing with such matters concerning certain issues which we can agree upon.

We are here not to judge others but just to follow what God Almighty has decreed for us, mankind.

Peace be to you sir.

MAHAGURU58 said...

warrior2,

Bilamana Emmanuel berkata begitu, dia bermaksud supaya permintaan Wanita MCA itu dituruti Kerajaan.

'Have pity' yang dinyatakan Emmanuel bermaksud kasihani anak diluar nikah tersebut dan berikan status sah kepada dirinya.

Sila emel Emmanuel di emmanuel83@hotmail.com untuk penjelasan lanjut.

Blog Emmanuel di http://emmanuel83.blogspot.com.

Mudah2an jelas nanti.

Emmanuel said...

Hehe, an entire post on this.My email's emmanuel_83@hotmail.com bro..

And I draw my empathy for the unborn child from Mark 10:14 - “Let the little children come to me. Don’t keep them away. God’s kingdom belongs
to people like them.”

I feel ostricizing any child would only serve to hinder them from religion, for they will only hate the one thing that drew them away from society :/

Again, thats only my opinion.Thank you for your clarification on this matter :)

I knew Sdr Teoh briefly, and what happened to him was a sad tragedy that should not have happened to anyone.I think that much we can agree on?

Old Fart said...

Mahaguru, I feel sorry for you. You are obviously motivated by the fear you have for your God.

Bumblebee only stated passages from the Old Testament. Not the New!

Just as in the Quran you have later "revelations" abrogating earlier ones, you will also see in the Bible too many a commandment of the Old discontinued in latter parts of the Old as well as the New Testaments.

But what exactly was your objective in your posting of this verse that you selected which obviously is abrogated many times over? And you repeated the many different versions of it. Salivating over something you found more in consonance with your line of thinking?

You want to try to attempt to understand where it is we Christians might be coming from, stop fearing the Lord for just a minute. And start loving HIM!!

MAHAGURU58 said...

No worries Old Fart.

I had just pointed out what The Bible has to say about the matter.

The various sources were all there in that page I copy pasted them from.

I LOVE ALLAH the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful with all my heart dear sir and I have surrendered my soul to Him ever since I came to learn about Him way back when I was quite young.

We are all brothers here as fellow Children of the Prophet Adam Alaihis Salam.

Best we can do is to agree on things that matter to us and move on with our life's as long as we shall live.

Thanks for the feedback and well wishes bro.

Keep in touch and have a nice day old chap! :)

Apocryphalist said...

People here are confused between legitimizing something as opposed to being kind, being gentle, being considerate or being supportive. There are no contradictions in the two biblical statements above, irrespective of whether they come from the old or the new testaments. God is not a Flip-flopping Entity: What He Says, He Means.

And therefore He admonishes anybody who treats children by stratifying them according to what sin the parents have done because children are children: they only do what is fed or taught unto them.

That does NOT mean, however, that God does not have any regards for his own laws. Whatever law He puts with regards to family and marriage legitimacy is meant for the well being and magnanimity of society. So the law regarding children from unwed parents remain.

Things start to go haywire and become the devil's playground when people start to modify, interpret, nullify or outright go against these laws. Once a society abolishes the laws of God, or finds that they really are not fit into their society anymore, they now challenge the sanctity and divinity of God, as is so planned and engineered by Satan himself.

A case in point would be homosexuality. It has been clearly mentioned in the old testament the degree of gusto and fervor God has against those who commit this most abominable trait and lifestyle (and don't argue otherwise: for if not, the deaths and destruction of Lot's people would all be in vain!) but look at what's happening nowadays, particularly in the biggest christian countries of all: the United States and Europe. They LEGITIMISE these acts, have priests administer the rituals of marriage, advertise the neutrality of these lifestyles, and ... simply ... poke God in the eye! And with the clever separation of faith and executive that has been planned and engineered by godless forces over the centuries, the voices of the "faithful" and their "qualms" perpetually remain in the deep abysses of obscurity.

Apocryphalist said...

...continued ...

Why does a religion like christianity, whose vehemence against homosexuality used to be much more glaring, more pronounced and manifested more than Islam itself, now have a roundabout turn and let those countries whose founding fathers developed their constitution based upon faith in God (the biblical god, not any other!) either promote or allow even the vilest form of homosexuality: namely marriage union?

There are several-pronged answers which I have thought of, and several more which I haven't.

Firstly, the idea of Celibacy. This concept, which had never been taught by Jesus Christ himself, destroys the basic needs and humanity of a human being himself, as had been realised by Martin Luther at Wittenberg 15 centuries after Jesus Christ. Now even for those who persist in the catholic insistence of this concept, no one, especially those who practise it themselves, can totally ignore the cravings and calls of that very basic human need. The rest, as they say, is history: cases of Catholic priests (and protestants too!) abusing young boys homosexually are so rampant that it would fill pages and pages just to write one-line titles of these REPORTED cases.

Now think how could these ... "ikan haruan" be the defenders of the faith, as far as that particular legislative is concerned? What would you expect the outcome to be, say, by letting Ronnie Liuew give a speech on the badness and pitfalls of underworld gansgterism, or Anwar Ibrahim speaking on the sins and vices of gayisms?

A second reason that comes to mind would be the extreme wish of some people to put "public opinion" to be way above the laws and wishes of God. So for example if "public opinion" says that an illegitimate child is all and sundry, so be it, and down the drain goes God's Laws.

One thing that they never realized is that the "public" in "public opinion" is made up of diverse people of diverse backgrounds and faith, some unsurprisingly spending their entire life REFUTING God's command and laws.

Yes, it is always ok to view at certain rulings in lieu of these societal compositions, but never justify them by bringing God or the bible in. Because God, irrespective of what the public opinion says, certainly has a Mind and Rulings of His own.

bear_crawler said...

John 8:7

When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

MAHAGURU58 said...

And none who are amongst the true servants of God would have the courage to do just that!

Yet the world we have today is just chock full of the haloed ones, eh?

Que sera sera bro.

Till later.

Take care.

VICTOR LEE SATU ANAK MALAYSIA said...

The one who wrote this(as follow):

"What would you expect the outcome to be, say, by letting Ronnie Liuew give a speech on the badness and pitfalls of underworld gansgterism, or Anwar Ibrahim speaking on the sins and vices of gayisms? "

is really defame and no head/stupid...do you think you are "GOD"??? to pin-point and make accusation without facts!

how ugly and abuse of power from barisan nasional is a fact, and the nation will be importing petrol from 2013/2014 onwards...this is facts....then we can talk, and nation is going to bancrupt in 2019..this is fact to come.

peoles' eyes are more smart, clear and not easy to be blinded by utusan malaysia, bertia harian and even now very less want to read NST, why because of bias and misleading news....no more facts that can convince people!

regarding Sdra Teoh's case, according to adat ream, istiadat Tionghua, once both couple's parent agreed to the marriage, then they are considered as husband and wife. So, in adat resam and istiadat, they are "legal"! but due to the amendment of Malaysia Marriage Laws that no longer accept this, they only be viewed as not legal(i.e. legal views not Chinese Adat or istiadat view)!

I hope you can understand why all Chinese society considered Teoh's son is legal in istiadat, adat resam, so the boy is acceptable.

Be open-minded, and understand all races' opinion, adat resam is important as you understand the religion. As his is multiracial, multicultural society, viewpoints of all shabe respected!

Thank you mahaguru for your viewpoint, and happy to see you are open-minded and can accept various point of views/pandangan, pendapat and only more open-minded will be good to all, to our next generation!

VICTOR LEE SATU ANAK MALAYSIA said...

Once again I would say, pinpoint without facts is fitnah, defamation and is big DOSA!!!

So, the one said as folow:
"What would you expect the outcome to be, say, by letting Ronnie Liuew give a speech on the badness and pitfalls of underworld gansgterism, or Anwar Ibrahim speaking on the sins and vices of gayisms? "

IS REALLY SHAMEFUL, NO MANNER AND BERDOSA, AMAT BERDOSA!

It is these kind of mindset(as always used by local newspapers controlled or pro BN)....that destroy democracy, freedom of thinking/press freedom...and destroy the goodwill/muhibah of all races......controlling people's mindset, thinking is the most ugly things to all, to the nation, to the mankind!!!!

it is time to wake up and not to be influenced by these "kuncu-kuncu" that have benefits and motives/agenda!

Be free man and no more lead by blind reports from newspapers, leaders and talks.....

we need big changes now.....for our next generation that will no more br blinded by BN!